Mahler and Donizetti to balance the Handel
Yesterday I listened to Mahler’s Das Lied von der Erde because I had never done it before and thought I should (must bring back Thursday’s something else). Today I listened to the 2014 Roberto Devereux from COC so I don’t get some part of Il trionfo del tempo e del disinganno stuck in my head again.
With Lied my conclusion was that I can see why anyone bothers with it but I’m in no hurry to hear it again for at least a few good months. The length alarmed me in the beginning but it turned out to be less of a difficult listen than I thought. I don’t know that I actually liked some parts or rather that I enjoyed what Christa Ludwig did with the music. Perhaps a bit of both. Generally I have a hard time relating to the music of that period.
Devereux isn’t Maria Stuarda. It’s ok, less flashy (negligeable amound of trills), more Verdian maybe. There’s nothing wrong with Radvanovsky but I wasn’t overcome with mad passion and she had plenty of time to wow me. I think she and the chaps were expressive for what the music is, I just wasn’t invested enough (I don’t know the plot). It felt old school but I had this feeling even when attending performances of Donizetti operas. I guess we associate old school opera with this repertoire?
…
After predictibly getting very friendly with this Il trionfo I thought about a feeling I’ve had in recent months – that of having gone off belcanto a bit. Namely, I don’t think trills are well integrated within works of the 19th century. Now I know trills aren’t done the same way in Baroque as in belcanto. Even so, in 19th century works they seem superfluous (to me) though they don’t do so in Baroque. Maybe it feels more natural for Tempo or Bellezza to trill and less for some random human? I’m not sure, I think it’s more to do with the amount and the quality. After 1800 they just seem to be there for (often trashy) ornamentation, perhaps quantitative restraint would’ve worked better. How cool is it to have two grown up characters do the singing equivalent of cooing at each other?
Along the same thought, I was thinking how I feel that in Verdi the music and the ethos of the libretto don’t mesh. The feelings are modern (for his time) whilst the music seems old school. With Wagner I think things mesh well again, I just don’t like either the ethos or the music 😉
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Posted on February 14, 2016, in freeform weekend and tagged das lied von der erde, handel, il trionfo del tempo e del disinganno, mahler, roberto devereux, verdi. Bookmark the permalink. 46 Comments.
opera, innit? 
“Das Lied von der Erde” is one of these that should be heard live methinks.. and with a particular singer (not sure which) but it suddenly clicks! at least that’s how it is for me.. then i can digest tube.. but not the other way around (though i must also say some of Mahler stuff i totally don’t get and yet others work right out of the box! you do need a particular singer…
1 more interesting note: it seems i get it more with non-germans! perhaps it is really that convo we were having, technicality vs big picture 🙂
live? Not sure I am ready to sit through live Mahler yet. But it is true that live, where you give it your whole attention and everything sounds vivid, makes everything a little more palatable.
interestingly in this case I didn’t think the singers were at fault at all (didn’t particularly care about the Kollo chap or about the tenor line but he wasn’t annoying either). I don’t know what a different singer than Ludwig could bring to it that would make me fall all over but you never know. But since you mentioned the non-German thing I might give it another try with one. Just not now or tomorrow.
ps- i heard all the “hype” about Mahler since a looong time and sat through 4 extravagant Mahler’s symphonies (not sure which) through the years of discovering classical music and never got anything out of it.. (only once with pro orchestra).. then finally i attended one with a local bass and the school orchestra and “click”, the local bass did it for me at the last minutes of the hour-long performance. it was this piece (Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Songs of a Wayfarer). may be i’ll listen to it again today to see if it captured the same effect… (am putting A.Coote there b/c Anik once mentioned to me she really enjoyed her way of interpreting Mahler in general.. but she’s german-speaking so may be that’s why.. i think for non-german speaking audience (me) we (I) need more than the text and background, hence my hypothesis that a non-german singer can get that across to us (me) better.. Finally, there’s this song cycle for dead kids that i sat through S.Mingardo singing and apparently got depressed for like a whole 3 days!! 😀
(ps- on your note regarding live and you give it your whole attention, it’s not what i mean actually, coz when i don’t get, i don’t get 😀 , and Mahler’s orchestration in general i never get.. and yet somehow it finally clicked when i listen to a single vocal line accompanied by single instrument or very few..)
I like that. It was good to have the lyrics but I would’ve liked it nonetheless.
I have read that Mahler’s orchestration is supposed to be a very big deal but to my current taste it sounds too busy and overly maudlin, as if he’s taking things way too seriously. Dead children? I’ll pass for now.
hehe, i read “but i wouldn’t have liked it nonetheless” 2x and thought wow dehggi is quick to decide 😉
and i thought it was longer.. 2min, phfff
it’s longer, I’m listening to Gerhaher’s version and that’s 16min.
snap decisions aren’t my thing 😉
ja, i sat through in concert, i knew it was long.. i was hoping clip w/ A.Coote the whole cycle but apparently snip only..
right, “snap”, i thought perhaps sunday coffee was a bit foul 😉
it was a nice snip, I will try her again for Mahler.
unrelated: I finally spent some time with the Barcelona Ariodante. The production is funnier than I thought Ariodante can be.
i love those gestures from polinesso 😀 , and VK rocking while the sop sang her coloratura. actually i really love the acting, as subtle as iy gets, lots of nice facial expressions too
quite surreal! Dalinda’s shuffle was hilarious too.
in fact the one w least fun was poor …. what s her name? (just done moving 10 heavy book boxes to office, braine pooped 😀 )
you were really quick with unpacking. Did you find the chair?
sadly they havnt located yet… that mother of all truck was quite a sight! i super impressed how that guy backed it in w/o running down the whole complex :-D. yep, just lots and lots of books and notes, all work stuff.. the rest in like 10 boxes . i only wanted an empty apartment w lots of windows and sunlight 😀
but when will you know? I hope somebody didn’t take it at a previous stop.
sadly i might have lost it, i doubt it ended up in someones hands, rather the company lost track of it in their huuuuge warehause/ trucks… likely i have to fill out paperwork and they return some money, but money was not the issue.. in any case uf i ever move again i will pay extra to ship my desk and only other chair separatly.. but u know u can never b sure cos they can still lose it somewhere…
😦 sad story.
they didnt lose my most important desk so at least that s good, happy valentine btw, everything is pink here while i shop for toilet scrubs 😀
cheers, same to you. Perhaps pink toilet scrubs 😉 that’s the sign of a true romantic.
they found the chair 🙂 ( will be put on another truck to be delivered next 10 days.. hope they don’t lose track of that.)
yay! also the Handel Festival tickets have arrived 🙂
it s coming together! 😀
ps i sat for 20 min resting and still cant remember her name, the target of Ariodante’ s love 😀 , but now have that first Dalinda’s aria in head, it s always an earworm!
Ginevra! I also forgot her name, had to look it up 😉 I always forget her arias, so boring.
i ve devised a meyhod to remember her name from now on: SM popping up the top row of “stairs” in her moustach calling out in deeeep voice “gineevvra”
haha, that’s quite a moment, yes! Polinesso’s facial hair is one of the best things, it’s got “villain” written all over 😀 then Ginevra has that aria about “ugh, go away you horrible creep!”
i fell for da moustache and deep voice so easily 😉
should’ve included him on my “facial hair for trouser roles” post 😀
ps- oh, just realized i had this photo downloaded from somewhere.. a closer look at facial hair 😉
Ariodante looks like a badger 😀
ps- it’s actually interesting if you think about it! the main character’s lady yet i also can’t remember a tune or name.. admittedly only sitting through a few i also don’t recall any soprano standing out in this role either! Polinesso has all the fun 😀 , and Dalinda here with her wiggling toes are so fun as well, as you have noticed..
btw, would you contemplate writing a post about this at some point? then i can hold on to my thoughts.. coz i’ve been waiting for 3 years to discuss it 😀
Petibon in the Aix production stands out. It was the only time I cared about Ginevra (still can’t remember the tunes 😉 ). So it’s not hopeless.
ok, I will write once I listened to/watched the whole thing.
ja, i remember her (Petibon). no hurry, i’ve waited 3, a few more won’t hurt. i’d like to go on record though to say i like Polinesso’s socks (too, in addition to hair, moustache, and sword)…
totally bessotted with Polinesso 😉
i promise the last note on polinesso for the day, please pay attention to the velcro on socks and sword… i dont mind being attached via velcro too… 8->
man, poor poet, lying in the field with snow covering his listless body… actually i like SC’s take much more.. somehow she has the going up and trailing that conveys the mood better for me brain.. (coz i listened to Gerhaher’s while working and was like “huh, it’s over? where’s that feeling i had at the end??” :D)
ps- ha! now quite off topic.. but after SC’s version.. i clicked on her master class , and now i realllllllly like to hear recit as speaking speech!! may be this is the explanation i need to finally get to that Zürich Tito!
(and i reallllly like how much time is spent on the recit! 🙂 )
she spent ages because the girl was rather rubbish. She couldn’t do shattered and hopeless, she kept shounting in anger! Plus soprano ping.
one problem with Zurich Tito is that on top the speaking speech the tempo is also quick so they kinda zoom through. Then again, I haven’t listened to it in a while.
ja, but it’s often that recit was sped through as well. speaking of recit, i’ve always thought of the entrance recit of Ariodante in that Barcelona prod is what separates her from the field. that type of detailed descriptive recit is almost a lost art.
a lot of things separate her from the field faraway gaze (where’s your blinking smilie?). I will have to investigate that entrance further now that I have a week off work.
here, back by popular demand:
1-wk off, that’s nice! yes, check the entrance recit. i like how they make the contrast between Polinesso and Ariodante too. too bad these two don’t have a tête-à-tête duet like in Tito 😀
ps- just thought i also note: some of VK’s most die-hard fans have sworn she’s absolutely not the right person for Schubert + Schumann lieder and yet I really enjoy her singing (but of course understanding nothing about the actual german part..) There was even quite a lively discussion about that once on Anik’s, and these same german-speaking (i assumed..) fans were raving about her singing of Russian arias.. and i was already thinking back then how interesting that for the language they’re not the expert in they “get” what she’s trying to say and yet insist she’s saying it “all wrong” when it comes to their language.. So i almost wrote a blog post back then but decided not to.. that I used to be a total ass when it comes to anyone trying to sing those vietnamese traditional songs I grew up listening to.. and it’s because it’s not just the song, but we identified something strongly with it (the experience we went through, the time it came out, the culture, the blah blah, a bucket of laundry that comes with it..) so we “personify” the way it “should” sound and thus when some eagle flying in trying to take a bite at it without those “familiarity” to our experience we can’t press the reject button fast enough..
(and now i recalled my first venture to your blog, in fact, was when you wrote about her lieder cd 🙂 )
ditto to that! I love that bit about how we “absolutely get it” in the foreign language. Luckily for us it’s all foreign 😀 I think you’re spot on with associating this and hat stuff plus our shared experience about songs etc. in our own language. To expect foreigners to get that is a bit rich, though I’ve also occasionally fallen into that trap. But on a good day I think it’s refreshing to hear another type of interpretation of the same old. Music doesn’t “belong” to anyone, it’s great that people enjoy different/foreign things which speak to them and they make them their own. I still like that CD 😉 I’m going to listen to Fischerweise right now.
It’s interesting that what comes off as old school doesn’t have really anything to do with actual chronology. I wonder if that has to do with our missing a whole lot of repertoire between, say, the late baroque and 1800. Everything has turned into remote outposts of style without the connections between them.
Pedantic footnote: fwiw, trills in Verdi actually do carry meaning, more often than not 🙂
It’s interesting what was selected into the main repertoire when the recording age began, which is what we now call old school (I think). Over time seems like things have been co-opted based on certain conductors’ or singers’ preferences, more or less at random. Looks to me like there was no organised way of pulling things back from oblivion, though the Baroque revival is perhaps the closest thing.
ok, you’re the Verdi expert, I take your word. I was thinking about Rossini mostly when I wrote that. My relationship with Verdi has so far been very love/hate but I can’t claim expertise of any kind. Something seems to be missing or a bit off but I can’t articulate it very well.
Yeah, it’s been haphazard and, as you say, driven by the interests of individual singers, with varying degrees of success and/or staying power. And bearing in mind that a large percentage of what we now think of as 19th c. Italian standard rep was fairly unknown by the time the recording age began (including about 50% of Verdi’s entire output, and more of Rossini’s).